drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  26

  IF YOU STILL READ THE BIBLE WHAT VERSION DO YOU READ??

  by Ohio Nana in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have my jw bible but also have the good news bible that was used at the lutheran church i went to for about 8 yrs back in the 80's.. one (jw)is hard to read and understand some of the books and the (good news)other is to easy and leaves somethings out, well the jw one does to.. .

  o.n..

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  drew sagan

  The Jerusalem Bible & NRSV
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  13

  The importance of Rutherford...

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was doing some thinking about watchtower eschatology and something interesting popped into my head.

  throughout the watchtowers revelation book we read of elaborate stories and interpreatations all putting the watchtowers history into the pages of the bible.

  some of these include:.

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  drew sagan

  Just wanted to add...

  I think that what I'm most trying to drive at is that the JW's actually have a tradition that has been handed down to them. Rutherford began a unique religious system and those who were close to him carried on that tradition.

  On other threads there has been discussion as to whether or not certain long held teachings would be "scrapped". I think that understanding the Rutherford tradition as it stands shows that long held beliefs are now part of a foundation. The Jehovah's Witnesses of today are completely differant from the Bible students of the early 20th century. The leaders that came after Rutherford only have built upon what he did. They never totally scrapped everything like Rutherford did to Russells legacy. After 3-4 generations of leadership that have consistantly continued in the traditions of Rutherford there is no reason to expect change.
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  13

  The importance of Rutherford...

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was doing some thinking about watchtower eschatology and something interesting popped into my head.

  throughout the watchtowers revelation book we read of elaborate stories and interpreatations all putting the watchtowers history into the pages of the bible.

  some of these include:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  drew sagan

  You missed a fact that to me, is more destructive than anything else Rutherford did in your citations.

  I wasn't trying to figure out what was "most destructive"

  I think what you speak to are basically the "fruits" of an apocalpytic sect. Why invest in today when the grand new tomorrow is "right around the corener". Rutherford sure did reward those who put everything on the line.

  That being said, it should come as no surprise that JWs are so amoral and words like "love", "Kindness", "generosity", and especially "agape" are just words to them.

  Wow, talk about painting with a broad brush. Yes their are certain characteristics that are quite ubiquitous in Witness culture but there are lots of people within the movement that hold to a common sense of descency (one JW even called me to see how I was doing!). The movement brings out the worst in people, but it doesn't mean all of the people inside are of the worst possible kind.
  
  cawshun,

  I think that the "survival of the JWs" boils down to whether or not they adopt a long term view. With the "Rutherford" era being the set foundation of the religion, the current theology could possibly be reworked a bit so as to deemphasize Armageddeons closeness and focus on long term stability. That has happened already to some extent, but the leaders have to seal the deal. Mormonism I think is an excellent example of a religion that changed from heavy apocalyptic speculation into a long term belief system. JWs could do it.
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  13

  The importance of Rutherford...

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was doing some thinking about watchtower eschatology and something interesting popped into my head.

  throughout the watchtowers revelation book we read of elaborate stories and interpreatations all putting the watchtowers history into the pages of the bible.

  some of these include:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  drew sagan

  I was doing some thinking about Watchtower eschatology and something interesting popped into my head

  Throughout the Watchtowers Revelation book we read of elaborate stories and interpreatations all putting the Watchtowers history into the pages of the Bible. Some of these include:

  - The "trumpet blasts" of revelation are Watchtower conventions during the 20's and 30's
  - The name of the religion, "Jehovah's Witnesses" fulfilles prophecy
  - Differant Watchtower articles (Birth of a Nation among others) fulfills prophecy
  - The Socities presidents in Prison fulfills prophecy
  - The Socity was chosen by Jesus Christ in 1918/1919

  What do these things have in common? Two things I notice:

  - They all take place before Rutherford died
  - They all involve J.F. Rutherford in some way

  J.F. Rutherford took the pieces he inherited from the Bible Student movement and formed his own religion. I don't think this can be stated enough. Russell did not start this religion, Rutherford did. He created many of the traditions and attitudes that still are inside the Watchtower to this day. He named the religion. He created Kingdom Halls. He pushed for manditory door to door preaching. He got rid of elected elders. And most importantly, he interpreted prophecy and the bible through his own personal life experience.

  Much has been said of the "Russelites" but I think we also need to talk about "Rutherfordties". This would include people like Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz. These are guys that followed Rutherford and carried on his traditions after he died. They continued to do what Rutherford did. Yes they made changes but they were slow over time. Additinally the stuck with a model that put Rutherford at the center of the divine plan.

  The modern day religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is essentially a very "refined" tradition of Rutherfordism.

  Think of it this way. After the death of Rutherford, what major scriptures are said to have been fulfilled by the Watchtower Society? Very few really. Rather, most interpretations look back to Rutherford.

  Thus, there is a gap. A gap between an exciting time when prophecy was being fulfilled every other year, and our time when nothing is being fulfilled (yes they WTS has edited what 'world powers' fulfill what scritupre but it's own involvement in prophecy has remained unchanged)

  What we see is that the Watchtower is following a pattern that other religions have followed. The exciting times when God was working miracles of prophecy one year after another blur into a mythic past. It's this myth that current members look at in Watchtower "history" books. They are far removed from the historic founding of the group.

  In many ways JWs today want to be part of something exciting like those at the groups founding. However, in order to survive the group has to create myths of the past while creating new traditions that help the movement sustain itself through the future. At this point I think we are in the middle ground. Even the WTS seems unable to make up its mind. Does it want to try and recreate those exciting "edge of your seat" days or do they build for the future? Time will tell.

  Either way, understanding that it all starts (and ends in some senses) with Rutherford is something I think is fundamental into understanding modern JWs. They do have a tradition and it's initials are JFR.
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  1

  mp3 but not pdf...

  by drew sagan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  or even on their website for that matter.. the watchtower is putting up a good bit of their information on the web these days, but most of it is only in mp3 files on their jw.org website.

  they still don't have most of their new articles go onto the main website, nor do the offer other things such as pdf files.

  i can understand not having pdf files to a certain degree, but not having an organized method by which all of their articles (at least the current ones) make it to their website puzzles me.. i understand that the mp3 thing is a monetary issue.

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  drew sagan

  Or even on their website for that matter.

  The Watchtower is putting up a good bit of their information on the web these days, but most of it is only in mp3 files on their JW.org website. They still don't have most of their new articles go onto the main website, nor do the offer other things such as pdf files. I can understand not having pdf files to a certain degree, but not having an organized method by which all of their articles (at least the current ones) make it to their website puzzles me.

  I understand that the mp3 thing is a monetary issue. It costs less to put up downloadable mp3 files rather than make CD's and Tapes. I get that. But why not text?

  I know most will say they want to "control" the information and "hide" all the wacky stuff. Yet other organizations (the LDS website in particuliar) has archives of tons of articles all available online. In fact, rather than having a "CD-ROM" to access older books and articles I think LDS are supposed to use the main website for research. What kind of crazy stuff do the LDS have the JW's don't? Or is it just that Watchtower leaders are overly sensitive, bascially cutting off their nose to spite their face?
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  12

  God's Love book: Appendix optional (if it's too kooky, just skip it, per KM)

  by Open mind in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this week's q&a on using the keep yourself in god's love book says that coverage of the appendix with bible students is optional.

  anybody else pick up on this?.

  my take on it is, if you, the jw sales rep, think that anything in the appendix is going to raise eyebrows with your potential convert, just skip over it.

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  drew sagan

  what exactly is in the appendix?
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  88

  British Sociologist Predicts Possible Collapse in Jehovah's Witness Numbers

  by slimboyfat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a newly published article by british sociologist david voas argues jehovah's witnesses may be about to experience a collapse in numbers.

  contrary to claims by american sociologist rodney stark who predicts strong future growth for jehovah's witnesses, voas shows that jehovah's witnesses' efforts at recruiting new members have become increasingly unsuccessful over the past few decades: the rate of increase has steadily declined, and the number of hours each publisher must preach to produce an extra convert has gone up substantially.

  voas suggests a reason for the stagnation may be that there is a natural limit to the number of people in a given population that are susceptible to conversion to sectarian groups like jehovah's witnesses - the 'carrying capacity' of the population, and that the limit has largely been reached.

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  drew sagan

  Another thought.

  I think one major "reward" he is missing out on is the benifits that come to younger males. Men are able to attain a high amount of social status and prestige within the group. I would actually argue that this is just as important as many other well known factors that have driven growth (such as the "truth" message he speaks of). They are never in short supply of men who want to "reach out" so that they can gain status. Just think, to be a Watchtower Elder, Co, Do, even MS many times means that you are looked up to, admired, and have a status that overall is above the adverage publisher. Many young ambitious men give their heart and soul to the movement with the hope of advancement. To them I belive "growth" is not as important as simply the opportunity for advancement (or at least the perception of opportunity).
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  11

  Look What I Found At The Thrift Store!

  by Nosferatu in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  if anybody would like to see this thing, i could transfer and upload it to youtube.

  i don't even know if the teulon kh exists anymore..

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  drew sagan

  Silly! Get that thing on YouTube, it will be quite a blessing!
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  23

  The Miracle of Prayer - Samuel Herd, Governing Body Member

  by Kosonen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i found his talk at http://www.jwforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1704.

  here is a part of his talk.

  is he indicating that we should pray for gb so that jehovah god would open their eyes?.

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  drew sagan

  I agree with brother Herd.
  
  When ignorant men change, it's a miracle of God.
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  22

  WT: mainstreaming, becoming more cultish, or disappearing?

  by JimmyPage in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  is the wt mainstreaming into a more normal religion, is it tightening its grip, or are its leaders preparing to take the money and run, leaving its followers high and dry?

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  drew sagan

  I see a trend towards stagnation, but with continued growth.

  They have large amounts of assets and cash reserves in addition to a zealous membership (compared to other faiths that where entusasim is almost noexsistant). Despite the problems they still remain ahead of others.

  Of course, they face many long term challenges. Their theology is quite dated and is not equipped to last through the 21st century. They are stuck in the world of "print based" literature. Their services are dull and they are loosing young people. Additinally, there are many underutilized groups within the organization, a situation that exists because of a stubborn leadership unwilling to accept change (young people and women are especially underutilized). So the challenges they face are great. If they sucuessfully overcome these problems they will be stronger and more apt to survival. If not they will flounder. Right now I think we are at the breaking point. The next 15-20 years will reall define who they are for the next century.